Throwaway, because I'm going to say things that may not be all that kosher, but you asked for honest feedback, so here.
Additionally, you're asking some very nerdy nerds this advice on a Saturday of a long weekend. The population sample here is biased as hell.
Also, lets face it, men are pigs. And without a picture of you, we're all just guessing as to real reasons why. And, no, that doesn't mean I want a pic of you, please don't do that, please keep your privacy on HN. No pics.
Ok, that all said:
> I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships?
Men, bad as it is, don't want superwoman. Especially the men you're looking for in Austin. They want to take care of their woman and their families. I've read a few of your comments on here, but not all. And you come off as driven and very very smart. It's awesome.
That's generally a good thing, but likely not here based on your self reported failure.
Partnerships, sure. That's great. But men want to be men. And that mean the 3 P's: Provider, Protector, Procreator. If you have all three, you can be a 'real man' and participate in the great game of male honor. If you have only two Ps, you better be really good at them. If you only have one, you're not a real man and can't participate in male honor groups. Yeah, yeah, caveats all over the place. But, generally, you gotta have the three P's to be a 'real man'.
That you are a founder and a kick-ass, take-names, kinda gal is great. But it takes away the P of Provider part of being a man. Doing some real bad projection here, you likely make more than him, or will soon if all goes to plan. That means, to him, you're prospectively taking away some part of his manhood and honor. Also, he's likely reading into the reality that there just isn't a lot of time for another person in your life outside of your business. We all read here on HN how hard founder life is and how much of a time suck it is.
This one is less of an issue, maybe, I dunno. You mention crossfit and the like. That's awesome, you're doing a great job of working on your health and fitness. Keep doing that. But, depending on how big and fit you are, that takes away the P of Protector. He's not the person that can protect his family from the wolves at the cabin door. You both may be. That's awesome when wolves actually are at the cabin door. But he's trying to imagine his future with you, fantasize about what may be. Sharing that role of Protector may not be what he wants to fantasize about.
The last one is maybe the biggest issue and unfortunately the least changeable. The role of Procreator. You're 41. I'm not going to lie to you, the stats on procreation at as advanced maternal age as yourself are not the worst, but they are not the best either. Geriatric pregnancies like the one you are aiming to have come with a lot of risks and side effects on the child. That's pretty common knowledge. Men that you are looking for are aware that having children with you is a more risky proposition than with the, to borrow a baseball term, average replacement. Meaning that, clone you exactly but 10 years younger, it's less risk to go with the younger clone in terms of child health. I know, that's really pretty brutal. I'm sorry, it's fucking bullshit. But by being older than younger-clone-you, you essentially lessen the third P of Procreator.
So, what to do then?
Like I said, you have to have all three to be a real man, or be really good at at least two. I feel that you're pretty dead set on the Procreator role for your man. That's totally cool. I have kids too. They are awesome, more people should have them. They filled a hole in me that I wasn't aware that I had. But with your age, understand that means he's going to count that one as a 'less' role for himself. You need to build him up on the other two.
So for the Provider one, you kinda gotta aim for men that make more than you, are otherwise really good at hunting/fishing/outdoors stuff and take that really seriously, or are really good at scrapping, knowing the right people, grifting, etc. He's gotta feel like he's able to Provide for you, that you depend only on him for your future and your financial security. Because the P of Procreator is lessened, you have to heighten this one. Being a kick-ass start-up founder, yeah, this is going to be a tough one for you to navigate. Honestly, I'd go for the outdoorsy types as the financial stuff is going to be messy. You can kinda let this P be a 'less' overall, but not as much as the Procreator one.
So, for the Protector one, as I said at the start, you gotta drop the handkerchief. I think this is the one you can have the most success with. Be more of a damsel in distress for him. Yeah, I know, it's not the most modern-orthodox idea. But you need to build these men up as being able to take the role of Protector as the main role for them in the realtionship. You have to make him feel really truly huge as a Protector for you. Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters with lot of guns. You're in Austin, there are a lot of gun start-ups there, take advantage of that. Talk up how unsafe you feel about town, how your ex was abusive or something, how you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. Strange as it sounds, be easily startled.
In short, drop the handkerchief. I think it's your best bet.
Best of luck! I hope all goes well and I look forward to seeing a post on here from you about how it all turned out great! You got this girl!
I’m sorry but I find this overly simplified psychological model of men quite demeaning. Sure you will find men who do fit this model, but why the hell would you want to?
You are essentially asking op to change who she is to fit into an outdated model of the world.
Moreover the person she finds will likely be completely incompatible for her and even abusive toward her.
The 3Ps model comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity. It's a dense read and very well researched. The 3Ps comes out of the studies on male honor and that culture and how they are all linked together. Very few societies do not have male honor cultures. And yes, not all males participate in their honor culture, but as a consequence they are not considered 'real men' in their culture. The culture of men in Texas very much has the 3Ps defining a 'real man'.
As for asking OP to change, welp, yeah. I mean, she's literally asking HN what she needs to change to get a man to settle with her.
I don't see why they would be abusive at all. The Protector role is the literal opposite of that. A 'real man' protects his family and loved ones, he does not harm them. This is in part why wife-beaters and child abusers are so reviled in the culture and courts of Texas.
Hopefully the book will be a good summer read for you. Thanks again!
A man can have honor and represent amicable qualities: wanting to provide and protect - nothing wrong with that, but if a man has a problem with a woman being a provider or protector then thats a recipe for disaster. You shouldn’t have to make yourself appear weak so that a man is attracted to you.
Its better to filter out people who don’t accept you for who you are rather than bend over backwards to try to appease someone. If you are a kickass woman entrepreneur then lean into that and find someone who admires that quality in you.
In regards to the potentially abusive situation, let me elaborate:
If a man needs a woman to be weaker than him, in my mind that is toxic and potentially abusive. Best filter these people out from the beginning by being honest with yourself and them
I can’t relate to this “three Ps” thing at all. I just want a partner who is deep thinking (most important), reasonably kind, and reasonably good looking.
I couldn’t give two shits about some weird notion of being a provider or a protector. Income, strength? It doesn’t come into the equation for me. But then, I also don’t have a strong need to be a procreator.
I have no success dating due to my own seemingly excessive standards (almost impossible to find deep thinkers) so I can’t give any advice on that front.
But you shouldn’t rule out being a single mother, because I suspect you’d regret that once it’s no longer possible.
I find women who cannot provide for themselves unattractive.
I was brought up by 2 working parents and all my siblings are working professionals; I expect my partner to "pull her weight". Damsel's in distress are a huge turn-off for me,and having that imbalance feels icky and transactional on some level - to me.
But I know men who exclusively date women with lower academic qualifications than them, because they want that income gradient/clear pecking-order.
It's utter nonsense. It's typical HN, a long winded extremely confident post about something that the commenter clearly doesn't understand half as well as they think they do.
> I’d be curious to hear from men here if they identify with this and feel un attracted to a woman providing for herself.
No, I don’t identify in the slightest. The opposite is true. I find interest in someone who can be a partner in the true sense of the word. We should strive to improve each other and remain together by choice, because we’re happy, not because one of us has a small ego and the other is incapable of being independent. What a boring scenario.
That said, I don’t doubt it does happen. A friend has told me of a man she dated who couldn’t get over the fact she earned more than him. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t last. She’s much happier now, in a healthy relationship.
Is finding someone so important that you’d consider presenting as someone you are not? Sounds like a recipe to attract a partner you’d regret choosing.
Dated women who were way more successful than me. Wasn't a problem at all. It'd only be a problem if a guy has no confidence.
Personally, I think you just need to give up (that's what I did) and just learn to be okay with the things the way they are now. It either will happen or not. You just cannot force these things.
Also (probably not such a great advice) but maybe you just need to go to a bar and meet a guy who is a little bit of an asshole..?
I'm very into women who can provide for themselves, and potentially me (and I them) in case we need to lean on each other.
But I also 100% don't want to make kids, so probably not your target audience.
I'd actually be open to the idea of raising kids, parenting, adopting, etc., I just don't want to make them.
Not offering myself, but it's entirely possible there are men with similar preferences (or who had a vasectomy, etc.).. are you overlooking them as possible matches? Because you could have your relationship and your kids, and if there's no pressure on being the bio-dad within any time-frame, maybe that takes pressure off relationship candidates also
Based on my own - very Eurocentric - experience, and my circle of friends, relationships where only one part is the provider all failed (to reiterate: not all of them fail, just the relationship of people I personally know/friends of friends). It was about the money. Once one party starts to feel that the other is spending “their” money, the wheels come off. Maybe it worked better when divorce was frowned upon.
As for the protector… it does not matter how buff you are, in 99% of the time your average male will still be more able to fight off a physical threat. But yes, there are men who feel inferior because of being less fit. And there are men, who will applaud it and have no trouble lifting less weight than you. Guess who is more self confident…
About the procreation: that one I could imagine. If you want to badly have kids as a man, or want to badly leave that option for the future, you’d probably pick a spouse with enough “runway”. But there are also many guys who rather enjoy the money and don’t want kids.
It’s bad advice and maybe the rantings of a lunatic. Act like a damsel in distress? I don’t think I can read that twice without losing my vision. And the 3 P’s? C’mon. I have army special forces friends that make less than their wives and are childless, I don’t get the impression that they don’t feel like ‘real men’.
I would not mind my wife earning more than I do… she doesn’t but I wish she would (I was simply lucky enough to be passionate about something that pay well)! To be honest I think she put way more effort in her job than I do in mine! On the other hand my mother is richer than my father (they both are very wealthy but she is the wealthier) and was never an issue for them (still happily married at 72yo)
Maybe as a gay man my advice doesn't fit here, but that is not my experience at all. Gay couples work nicely even if they both earn similar income and there is no "provider".
i don't identify with this at all, but keep in mind, HN is not your average demographic. a lot of people here earn a lot themselves, so of course a partner with a good income is not going to make them uncomfortable.
I would never marry a woman that can’t provide for herself, and I think it would be amazing if she earns more than me.
However, I don’t think it’s completely wrong, men do want to feel needed somehow.
You seems so perfect and the only thing missing in your life it’s a child. That’s not a good advertisement.
Let men feel needed and tell them that, ask for their help and their opinion. If a guy is real computer nerd, let him help with your IT related issues, and sure, you could probably pay someone to do it better, but the point is to let people/men feel as part of your life.
What is missing in your life beside a child?
Are you too serious? Look for a funny guy that can make you laugh.
Are you too healthy maniac? Look for a guy that can sometimes push you to really tasty food, but not healthy.
Are you too impulsive? Look for a guy that keep you grounded.
- your 3 Ps sounds like a lot like I imaging older generations (older than me, mid20). Do you think this is changing with newer generations? As you said, this all is pretty much bullshit...
- From what OP said, she's more on the intellectual side. Men (or human in general) on this side might be more open and doesn't follow the cave man 'uga-uga' mentality
- Short answer: Probably never. The 3Ps theory is well established in academic masculinist studies. A good overview of the 3Ps comes from Gilmore's 1991 book Manhood in the Making: Cultural Concepts of Masculinity if you want to learn more. Very briefly, all males conform to these Ps to participate in male honor. Yes, many males do not, but they are then without honor, and therefore considered not 'real' men in their culture. Honor is redefined here to encompass more than just the classical concept and is more a pan-male term, it gets a bit wonky. Man is also generally defined as 'not a boy', not 'not a woman'(sorry for all the nots here). The book does a much better job at introducing the ideas than a little HN comment could. In the end, I fail to see how any generation is going to escape ~200,000 years of human history. I could be very very wrong though!
- It's not caveman, it's a theory of how men work in their culture and in almost all cultures we know of (the book goes into the exceptions and how they 'prove the rule' essentially). In the culture of Texas, 'real men' possess these three Ps, or at least have 2 Ps in above average amounts. HN isn't the best place to really dive into it, as most of the men here have above average Provider traits due to the income from tech jobs. It kinda blinds them to men that have to rely on the Protector and Procreator roles for their honor. I want to stress, Provider is not just income.
OP being a selector, and not a selectee, changes the equation a lot, of course. However, understanding the psychology of the men she is dating and their need of the 3Ps may help her address why her strategy is failing. Fluffing up the Protector role, or choosing men that have a lot of strengths in that role, may lead to more success.
If both you and your wife have good jobs I doubt you would be considered a less honorable man then if you had the same good job and your wife had a shitty one.
marrgTA says >...make him feel really truly huge as a Protector ... Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters .... You're in Austin, ... lot of gun start-ups there... Talk up how unsafe you feel ... how your ex was abusive ... you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. ... be easily startled.<
Bad advice, badly misinformed, all around. And lying to your intended is not a good recommendation:
- Crime in Austin is down and the town is incredibly left-leaning despite being in Texas. Your real problem is finding a single heterosexual male willing to procreate who has matching political views (unless you don't mind the difference),
- "Lot of gun start-ups there (Austin)" - incredible!
- The likelihood of getting in a fight in Austin, indeed, most anywhere, is slim: talking about such marks you as paranoid. [Chicago, maybe less paranoid!]. And, as everyone knows, in Texas we don't fight - we shoot each other [just joking!]. But again, pretending to fear a fight is lying.
That aside, my one question to you is why aren't you married yet - why have you rejected those men you've met who are willing to marry?
And finally, consider:
- moving to Utah (where everyone will make it their task to find you a suitable partner - they're very good at this and the Mormons are wonderful people). And Utah is a fantastic place to raise children. Hard to get good coffee there sometimes though.
- dating foreign nationals who need citizenship. Many would be surprised and pleased that you want to have children. [OTOH they might worry about your age (or their mother would!8-)).]
Additionally, you're asking some very nerdy nerds this advice on a Saturday of a long weekend. The population sample here is biased as hell.
Also, lets face it, men are pigs. And without a picture of you, we're all just guessing as to real reasons why. And, no, that doesn't mean I want a pic of you, please don't do that, please keep your privacy on HN. No pics.
Ok, that all said:
> I think that women are learning to take charge in every aspect of their lives. Why not relationships?
Men, bad as it is, don't want superwoman. Especially the men you're looking for in Austin. They want to take care of their woman and their families. I've read a few of your comments on here, but not all. And you come off as driven and very very smart. It's awesome.
That's generally a good thing, but likely not here based on your self reported failure.
Partnerships, sure. That's great. But men want to be men. And that mean the 3 P's: Provider, Protector, Procreator. If you have all three, you can be a 'real man' and participate in the great game of male honor. If you have only two Ps, you better be really good at them. If you only have one, you're not a real man and can't participate in male honor groups. Yeah, yeah, caveats all over the place. But, generally, you gotta have the three P's to be a 'real man'.
That you are a founder and a kick-ass, take-names, kinda gal is great. But it takes away the P of Provider part of being a man. Doing some real bad projection here, you likely make more than him, or will soon if all goes to plan. That means, to him, you're prospectively taking away some part of his manhood and honor. Also, he's likely reading into the reality that there just isn't a lot of time for another person in your life outside of your business. We all read here on HN how hard founder life is and how much of a time suck it is.
This one is less of an issue, maybe, I dunno. You mention crossfit and the like. That's awesome, you're doing a great job of working on your health and fitness. Keep doing that. But, depending on how big and fit you are, that takes away the P of Protector. He's not the person that can protect his family from the wolves at the cabin door. You both may be. That's awesome when wolves actually are at the cabin door. But he's trying to imagine his future with you, fantasize about what may be. Sharing that role of Protector may not be what he wants to fantasize about.
The last one is maybe the biggest issue and unfortunately the least changeable. The role of Procreator. You're 41. I'm not going to lie to you, the stats on procreation at as advanced maternal age as yourself are not the worst, but they are not the best either. Geriatric pregnancies like the one you are aiming to have come with a lot of risks and side effects on the child. That's pretty common knowledge. Men that you are looking for are aware that having children with you is a more risky proposition than with the, to borrow a baseball term, average replacement. Meaning that, clone you exactly but 10 years younger, it's less risk to go with the younger clone in terms of child health. I know, that's really pretty brutal. I'm sorry, it's fucking bullshit. But by being older than younger-clone-you, you essentially lessen the third P of Procreator.
So, what to do then?
Like I said, you have to have all three to be a real man, or be really good at at least two. I feel that you're pretty dead set on the Procreator role for your man. That's totally cool. I have kids too. They are awesome, more people should have them. They filled a hole in me that I wasn't aware that I had. But with your age, understand that means he's going to count that one as a 'less' role for himself. You need to build him up on the other two.
So for the Provider one, you kinda gotta aim for men that make more than you, are otherwise really good at hunting/fishing/outdoors stuff and take that really seriously, or are really good at scrapping, knowing the right people, grifting, etc. He's gotta feel like he's able to Provide for you, that you depend only on him for your future and your financial security. Because the P of Procreator is lessened, you have to heighten this one. Being a kick-ass start-up founder, yeah, this is going to be a tough one for you to navigate. Honestly, I'd go for the outdoorsy types as the financial stuff is going to be messy. You can kinda let this P be a 'less' overall, but not as much as the Procreator one.
So, for the Protector one, as I said at the start, you gotta drop the handkerchief. I think this is the one you can have the most success with. Be more of a damsel in distress for him. Yeah, I know, it's not the most modern-orthodox idea. But you need to build these men up as being able to take the role of Protector as the main role for them in the realtionship. You have to make him feel really truly huge as a Protector for you. Aim for the bulkier gym rat guys, maybe veterans or active duty men that can 'Provide/r' a really good healthcare and retirement plan, and again the outdoorsy hunters with lot of guns. You're in Austin, there are a lot of gun start-ups there, take advantage of that. Talk up how unsafe you feel about town, how your ex was abusive or something, how you really like a guy that can take care of you in a fight. Strange as it sounds, be easily startled.
In short, drop the handkerchief. I think it's your best bet.
Best of luck! I hope all goes well and I look forward to seeing a post on here from you about how it all turned out great! You got this girl!