I'm from Charlotte and I can honestly say that I grew up with more friends who had parents from New York than from NC. A lot of middle class people from upstate NY settled in Charlotte due to the economic opportunities and weather.
I'd wager that this migration really started about 30 years ago, and we're seeing the numbers increase even further due to network effects. For example, we've got a sizeable community of former Buffalo residents who gather over football games at restaurants that are run by other Buffalo natives.
For what it's worth, New Yorkers seem to be very culturally compatible with North Carolinians, we get along just fine. I feel like I've seen a bit less animosity for New Yorkers in NC than I saw for Californians in Seattle. There are jokes (ie, the town of Cary in the NC Triangle is sometimes said to stand for "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees"), but it never feels like genuine resentment.
I may just be biased though because buffalo-style pizza in particular has spoiled every other style of pizza for me. Please Buffalo peeps: keep coming here and sharing your food culture with us.
Washingtonians (and moreso Idahoans) are particularly irate about Californians moving in, and have been for as long as I can remember. There are a lot of "salt of the earth" types who, regardless of political persuasion, see Californians representing big houses, loose morals, and heavy traffic. The Northwest ethos has been one of eclectic flavors of stoicism, serenity, and a nordic work ethic. Californians, in their eyes, bring a more chaotic, cutthroat energy.
I've lived in and love both states. Every native Californian I've met on their home turf assumes that the entire state of Washington shares the same microclimate as Seattle. Most Washintonians rarely wash their cars relative to California's sparkly standards.
All of this is of course changing as more generations co-mingle, but the lore remains.
> see Californians representing big houses, loose morals, and heavy traffic.
I seriously doubt any place can make a defensible claim to high morals anymore, but big houses as a stereotype for California? I think that applies way more to Idaho. Space is too expensive for most people to live in big houses in CA. If anything, they go to lower population density states like TX and the South to get the bigger houses available there.
I was referring to the big houses they can easily buy when moving to the PNW. Its very common for somebody who was struggling to afford an $800K mortgage on a 3bd/2ba in CA to get a 6bd on 2 acres with a lovely view and a smaller mortgage in the PNW.
Anecdotally most people I know who have made that move just want the modest home they couldn't afford in CA, not a mini-mansion. Many have realized that owning a huge house beyond your actual needs is a maintenance nightmare.
There were anti-Californian campaigns started in the 1970s in Oregon. SNOB (Society for the Native Oregon Born) was started in 1979. It's been going on (in the PNW) for a long time.
The Wiki article on Californication has some dates that suggest it's been a known phenomenon since the 1940s! [0]
Maybe that's what it was historically, but these days, most of the sentiment against people moving from California is because more demand raises house prices and rental costs that are already perceived as overly high, and pricing too many locals out. Cultural issues are mentioned as an afterthought, if at all.
As one of the Californians moving to the PNW, I've noticed the people who most hate those darn Californians moved from California about 10-15 years ago. I've been here about 18 months, and only run into one guy who has deep roots here and was super grumpy about Californians. I'm sure it varies though depending on exactly where you are.
Thanks for that perspective, that makes a lot of sense.
Their fault for telling us where they went though. I'm gonna start telling people I moved to Texas and it's great. It's believable, and maybe people will move there and leave me be ;)
9 generations and counting, but people who hate "newcomers" are just uptight anyway. The attitudes of the pacific northwest are something most people can adopt in about six months, and most of the people who move here are looking for a change of pace anyway.
I find this to be a really interesting perspective. "Big houses"? Who can afford a big house in CA? "Chaotic, cutthroat energy"? I grew up on the east coast and have found CA to be much more easygoing to the point that I don't think I could go back.
Upstate NY and NYC proper are very different areas (might as well be different states).
Upstate NY have more in common with west MA, Vermont, NH, than with folks in the NYC area (where most of NY residents live).
The difference even more than someone from Alexandria/D.C with south VA, (e.g Danville, Roanoke, Halifax County etc...).
Yeah, I've noticed that as well, which is why I mentioned "upstate" specifically. We do get people from both parts, but tbh I don't think most of us NC people can tell the difference other than by food preferences and that the people from upstate tend to be more 2nd amendment. Otherwise, both seem more similar to each to other than to southerners.
But is it wrong to call people from upstate NY "New Yorkers" - or is that term only reserved for city people? If so, what are they called?
I was meeting a co-worker who introduced herself as a "New Yorker" (from Long Island) and I told her about how a there were a lot of New Yorkers here, like one of my close friends from Syracuse.
She gave me basically the same patient response I got here about how upstate was different. So I'm trying to be more conscientious about how I use that particular demonym and the context of it. But truth be told, I tend to throw most people from the north into a pretty broad "Doesn't like sweet tea and sometimes might talk loudly" category - so I'm still not able to guess if someone is from a different part of NY unless they tell me.
Please Buffalo peeps: keep coming here and sharing your food culture with us.
For a while, I would have said that they already sent you all the food culture they could. But I passed through Buffalo on a road trip a few months ago, and I gotta say, it's got a very hip vibe these days. Went to a great brewpub for dinner, and a local ice cream joint for dessert serving homemade ice cream.
I know a lot of these conversations are about families and older people than me, so an anecdote from the POV of a 26 year old
I just moved from Durham, NC back to New England after a year (Moved to NYC specifically, this is my first time in a truly large city)
I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone in my age group (and in tech) would want to move to Durham/Raleigh from NYC, except for raising a family
The cost of living in these places New Englanders and Californians are flooding has been shooting through the roof faster than the standard of living, which is staying steady to dropping as gentrification and population growth causes very real problems with traffic, crime, and homelessness.
Ironically, the low taxes that draw people to most of these places are a result of conservative policies, the same of which lead to limited infrastructure spending and ability to handle all this growth.
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Sure I pay 40% more for less space, but I don't need a car anymore, I can still go out to nature on the weekends, I can still go out to nature on the weekends, food scene on my surrounding few blocks is equivalent to the whole of Durham (and paradoxically cheaper, CoL calculators compare things like milk and bread, but when there's a restaurant on every corner, pricing is somewhat competitive), there so many activities, the list goes on.
Also the elephant in the room for all these low COL area conversations is savings. I can save the equivalent of my entire paycheck from Durham every month, and still live off what's left when subtracted from my NYC salary.
And while it's true NYC is more expensive, there's no rule that says one day when I'm retiring and trying to live off my savings I have to live in NYC.
A dollar is a dollar. If you take a pay hit based on lower COL, you're making a long-term sacrifice based on your current situation.
I'm not a fan of Durham, but I really like downtown Raleigh. The food is good, the people are friendly, and the local music scene is surprisingly vibrant. I've met at least two young people in Raleigh who are originally from NYC, a couple from Philadelphia too who said they don't want to move back.
The things those young people seem to have in common:
- Work low-skilled service industry jobs
- Have involvement in the music or art scene
- Are unhappy with standard of living available to them in "affordable" parts of bigger cities (ie, crime + pollution, not being able to afford a car for trips / gigging).
So that's one example of the type of young person who would prefer to move to Raleigh. I don't know if they're the type who will stay long-term, but there's definitely an appeal to a certain set of people. Highly paid techies who can work anywhere may not get much out of it. Personally, I just enjoy being here because I'm from NC and like the culture and my friends and family here. I might consider a bigger east-coast city in the future - but the west coast in general has completely lost its appeal.
Yeah... I specifically prefaced the comment with "most people in these conversations are talking about families" and specified in tech.
Even if it's just for a few years, the amount of money you can save up by living in these high COL cities is insane (for tech workers at least)
Honestly, part of it is I don't know how long that's going to be true. If we have a sudden tech bust, I'd rather be sitting on a large amount of savings and trying to find work anywhere it pops up than on a smaller amount that won't sustain me if I have to move to a high CoL area
I'm from Charlotte and I can honestly say that I grew up with more friends who had parents from New York than from NC. A lot of middle class people from upstate NY settled in Charlotte due to the economic opportunities and weather.
I'd wager that this migration really started about 30 years ago, and we're seeing the numbers increase even further due to network effects. For example, we've got a sizeable community of former Buffalo residents who gather over football games at restaurants that are run by other Buffalo natives.
For what it's worth, New Yorkers seem to be very culturally compatible with North Carolinians, we get along just fine. I feel like I've seen a bit less animosity for New Yorkers in NC than I saw for Californians in Seattle. There are jokes (ie, the town of Cary in the NC Triangle is sometimes said to stand for "Containment Area for Relocated Yankees"), but it never feels like genuine resentment.
I may just be biased though because buffalo-style pizza in particular has spoiled every other style of pizza for me. Please Buffalo peeps: keep coming here and sharing your food culture with us.