Created an(other) ta account to post this...

You DO NOT need the Google Play spyware, or the Uber or Lyft spyware apps, in order to use Uber/Lyft.

Most of these services, including Google Maps, have progressive webapps to be used right in a browser.

For additional security/privacy, open these apps in a separate/sand boxing browser.

For the truly careful, create a separate Android "profile" on the device for apps you don't trust even with permissions locked up (the accounts feature is an excellent sandbox for security/privacy).

I wish we had the option to use web apps instead for native apps for everything. As much as I hate modern web, I can't deny that not only are web apps cross platform, they also offer better privacy.

> For additional security/privacy, open these apps in a separate/sand boxing browser.

For sandboxing webapps in Android I recommend this app: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.tobykurien.webapps

For YouTube I've used NewPipe, which is absolutely fantastic (apart from occasional breakage due to API changes)

NewPipe is awesome... when it works. In my experience of only a few months, "occasional" is an understatement, unfortunately.

If you're using F-Droid, it helps to switch to NewPipe's own repo, since the default F-Droid repo tends to be a bit slow with updates.

How can i do that?

Here's their instructions: https://newpipe.schabi.org/blog/announcement/f-droid/pinned/...

I use the app every day - if memory serves they've usually had a new version out within 24hours of breaking changes on youtube.

Thank you

download apks directly from github

NewPipe is generally very rarely "down" - I think the youtube-dl upstream issues are impacting them, or they're playing dead for a minute until the RIAA fucks off.

NewPipe doesn't use youtube-dl. It uses its own library for downloading from Youtube.

playing dead avoids drawing attention to it

In my experience, NewPipe Legacy is more stable than NewPipe. Its intended for Android versions <5 but it works fine on my Android 9 device.

AFAIK NewPipe does not even use API, it parses UI, so it breaks when the UI changes.

I never looked into how NewPipeExtractor worked, I guess a hint was in the name.

NewPipe is also open source and very easy to sideload from F-Droid.

NewPipe is okay but I prefer Vanced Youtube

Careful with that one if you use some other Google service: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21247759

>apart from occasional breakage due to API changes

I agree, but I thought they were just scrapping YT and using YT-DL.

What about Vanced?

That's just a mod of the Google YouTube app, if memory serves. It probably still relies on normal Play Services, and is likely nonfree anyway.

It actually works just fine on Chinese Android roms without Google services.

Edit: Vanced relies on MicroG for logging in, and requires it to be installed along Vanced even on phones that have the "real" Google Play services.

Edit 2: I took "Chinese Android roms" as an example for Google-less roms. Of course, Vanced can't help in bypassing the Chinese firewall to contact Google servers.

Last time I tried no-Google Android, one of the biggest problems was that Slack wouldn't send me notifications

How well does microG handle push notifications in general, and particularly Slack if you have experience with that case?

PS: for others in that boat I recommend APKMirror for downloading non-OSS apps. It's run by people from AndroidPolice which is a reputable site, and simply mirrors (free only) apps from the Play Store, so it's all above-board and legit. The only problem is, as described above, some apps have Google Services dependencies baked-in.

> How well does microG handle push notifications in general, and particularly Slack if you have experience with that case?

MicroG push notification module will talk to Google servers (that's one of the parts where you can't get rid of Google). That's because the Google infrastructure actually delivers push notifications and arbitrates between app's backend and the app.

IIRC the module is optional to enable for obvious reasons.

Why in do google servers need to middleman every push notification on a phone? I mean, google play store phones home every 2 mins anyway, but that is extra creepy

Not sure how you imagine push notifications to work, but literally Google provide a "service" for this so app developers don't have to. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebase_Cloud_Messaging

So that there's only one network connection delivering all the messages to apps, instead of 1,548 SSE/WS/XHR/GET(!) connections all ricocheting around and timing out and getting reconnected and sending 200MB of pings every minute.

Got it. I wasn't actually sure how it was structured, but that makes sense.

I guess that really seals it, for those of us who care about push notifications.

No Slack notifications is _why_ I use it ;-) but if you want you can use Google's notifications with migroG (obviously giving them substantial tracking opportunities). AFAIK the effort to support non-Google notification servers dose not yet work.

It's generally be better for one's sanity to not get instant notifications anyway. But if you need them, you can also get Slack notifications over email. Or maybe you can set up a bridge and use some Matrix client (one less proprietary app on your phone then).

>What I mean by that is that if your goal is to use Android Pay, Chrome, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive, Google Fi etc. and somehow retain some level of privacy, MicroG isn't going to help.

Have you tried using Magisk hide & MagiskHide Props Config to enabled SafetyNet? If SafetyNet is enabled then Google Pay, other Payments & Bank apps might work just fine with MicroG (I haven't tested it, just a theory).

So ignoring the broader issues with the root arms race for a minute (SafetyNet is getting hardware-based verification in future devices, among other things), you and the parent appear to be talking about two different issues.

MagiskHide covers up the fact that your system is modified. When they talk about "somehow retain[ing]... privacy" it's more about telemetry built into the apps themselves.

It's a statement on Chrome, Maps, etc. tracking you when you use them, which is distinct from whether or not specific ones have SafetyNet-induced breakage.

No, I don't use Magisk because my phone isn't rooted.

Google Pay won't work even if SafetyNet passes because it depends on Google Play Services APIs that aren't implemented as part opf MicroG.

I haven't had any issues with any of my banking apps despite SafetyNet failing. They don't like root but they don't seem to care about SafetyNet.

Can you speak some about OSMAnd? I've used it and MapsMe some, and while the navigation works fine, I often have issues actually finding the places I'm searching for. Typing in an exact address is hit or miss and searching for something like the nearest grocery store can be even worse.

Are there any tricks or supplemental apps you would suggest?

Provided that OpenStreetMap data in your area contains house numbers (in not all places is this available), OSMAnd works fine for finding exact address. The only catch is that you need to choose the city, then choose the street, then choose the house number. This is exactly how car GPS units worked for many years, but I know people today have been spoiled by Google Maps and expect the address to be found if they just type it in as freeform text.

Searching for the nearest grocery store in OSMAnd is trivial: go to Search and then tap on the shopping basket icon: a list of nearby shops will appear, sorted based on how close they are to your current position. Of course, the grocery store needs to already been added to OpenStreetMap. If it isn't there yet, you can always sign for some an OSM editor account and add it yourself (but be aware that with great power comes great responsibility).

While not an app that itself provides supplemental data, I can recommend the app StreetComplete (not affiliated - just a happy user) if you like OSM. It "game-ifies" the process of correcting and adding to OSM data by presenting little challenges and questions about nearby objects - e.g. "What is this building called?" or "Is there an ACME Corp. in this shopping center?"

Ironically, you can use the Google Maps mobile web-app without Google Services, and it's inherently sandboxed by the browser. And it actually works quite well for a web app: the user experience was better than the native OSMAnd app, last time I checked.

It will obviously know what you search for and click on, but it'll only know your location if you explicitly give it out, and without the Services Google won't be able to reach its fingers into the rest of your system. So it can be a reasonable compromise.

That said: Apple Maps was probably the thing I appreciated the most when I finally relented and just got an iPhone :P

How was your experience switching from Android to iPhone? The last time I used an iPhone was the iPhone 4, but I've been seriously considering switching back for privacy reasons.

Overall, it's been fantastic. Six years ago or so I was really into playing with all of the ways you can customize Android, but more recently (I switched 2 years ago), I realized I just wanted a phone that would work. And for the most part, that's what I got: a phone that does phone stuff, and does it well (and still does it, 2 years later, just as well as the day I bought it). And does so with the most privacy that you can reasonably find these days without giving up those basic features of modern life or constantly fighting and fiddling with your device.

My main complaints:

1) The notifications UX is not as good. It gets the job done, but it just feels overall clunkier and worse. There's also a bizarre separation between your lock-screen and the "Notification Center" pull-down. I almost never use the latter, but whenever I open it there's always a random notification from like a week earlier that had been dismissed from my lock screen but was still hanging around there. This doesn't really matter in practice but it's very weird.

2) It sounds like a tiny thing, but the Clock app is not as good. It lacks a couple of really nice little features like early-dismissal of alarms and a confirmation whenever you turn one on ("Alarm set for 8h 23m from now").

But really that's about it. Apple Maps works great (at least in the urban area where I live), despite the memes. Customer support is great. The granular app permissions are extra great. And mainly, it's just nice to know that you can be a full participant in modern society, and you can expect your device to simply work, without also having your every step tracked. Knowing you won't buy a pair of headphones only to find out you can't use them because they require an app, which requires Google Services, which you don't have (this actually happened to me).

Edit: I should point out that I wasn't using microG, so I don't know how much that changes the experience. YMMV.

> I realized I just wanted a phone that would work. And for the most part, that's what I got: a phone that does phone stuff, and does it well (and still does it, 2 years later, just as well as the day I bought it).

I certainly don't intend to wax lyrical about Android devices but it does do phone stuff and does it pretty well. Android versions usually make sweeping changes to the UI so mine is a bit dated but it does what I paid for.

I do agree that tracking by private corporations is big no and collectively we should push back hard but whether it be google or apple or samsung or microsoft, all of them give nigh 2cents worth a damn about our privacy. We are their products as the now popular maxim goes.

The only phone with some privacy is a Nokia 3310.

> but it does do phone stuff and does it pretty well

It does, if you have Google Services. If you don't want Google Services, you're going to have a crippled device. Apple is the only company that has any financial incentive not to spy on you, so while I don't take them 100% at their word, I accept that they're the best I'm going to get in that regard.

Basically, pick two:

- A fully-functioning smartphone

- Reasonable privacy

- Customizability

> We are their products as the now popular maxim goes.

But this isn’t true for Apple. They sell their services and don’t depend on ad revenue.

That’s my experience with notifications as well, but I also still miss having a separate LED to show pending notifications when the screen is off.

I did like having a notification LED, but I don't miss it as much as I thought I would. And anyway, those are becoming less common on Android devices too.

FWIW you can configure your iPhone to flash the camera LED when you get a notification. Not quite the same thing because it isn't passive, but it's something.

Thanks!

I see OP has answered already but I also want to chime in and say that moving from (mostly flagship) Samsung and Sony phones (paid for by my employers) to a midrange iPhone XR has been a massive upgrade:

For the first time since Samsung SII I don't have to wait for the camera (or anything) to open.

Unlike on Android suggestions makes sense:

- Logged in with my 15 year old gmail account Android would suggest, at 4 in the morning: "send Telegram message to <random friend>" or "call CTO at customer".

- My 1 year old iPhone mostly suggest harmless things like "take the usual route home", "it is time to leave", "send Telegram message to <my beautiful wife>". On Saturday however it surprised me by being slightly more advanced: I had plotted an appointment to pick up something I had agreed to buy somewhere 40 minutes from home. Afterwards my iPhone suggested I should send my wife a message that I was on my way home. The message was even almost correct: it used "my" abbreviations but was a little bit to posh otherwise.

I use Here maps along with OsmAnd and they work fine for me. But I'm in EU and OSM data is quite solid here though.

So the DB app works with MicroG?

Because, when I tried running without Google Services, this was one of the few apps, which I really needed and which did not work. Annoyingly only because they used it for loading the map, which I didn't need anyway.

I'm not German so don't use it often but I installed it, ran it and had a quick look around and nothing was noticably broken. For me, Mapbox is used to display the map.

Would you ever consider an iPhone?

Yes, I have a bunch of Apple devices as well.

I find that iOS itself and its first-party apps are fantastic from a privacy perspective, especially compared to Google. Most of the apps I mentioned using on Android have an Apple-provided alternative that's vastly superior to Google in regards to privacy. For example Apple asks you when you set up your device whether you want to allow analytics and easily allows you to opt-out. Apple also allows you to use basically every service other than Siri and the App Store without storing any data on their servers.

It's not all sunshine and rainbows though. Unlike Android, there isn't a strong open-source/privacy culture among iOS developers, so there are few privacy-respecting or open-source third-party apps (while on Android, F-Droid is full of them). And there's no app sideloading and the OS itself is locked-down and closed-source.

Still, I'd say that as far as stock mobile OS go, iOS is the clear winner in terms of privacy.

When it comes to non-stock though, Android is much better, with the right device. There are devices (mainly Nexus/Pixel) that allow you to re-lock the bootloader after flashing a custom ROM by adding your own system verification key. With these, you can build AOSP, LineageOS, GrapheneOS or whatever takes your fancy, sign it with your own key, flash it to your device and then bootloader lock it. GrapheneOS also has verifiable builds.

With that, you get all the advantages of a locked device but you don't have to accept the backdoor that is Google Play services.

The level of privacy you get with a degooglized Android is light years better than any Apple product.

There are enough privacy scandal every months in the news to remind ourselves that Apple privacy is mainly marketing.

If I have to choose betweens stock Android and stock IOS, I would go IOS too, but none of those solution should be considered decent for privacy

microG is still very useful even if you only use free software apps that don't rely on google APIs: it provides wifi and cell based geolocation