You're misdirecting and missing the point entirely.
While I'm not quite anti mask like the parent comment, it is an important question to consider, it is always a trade off. What severity warrant what measures? If there's still covid like now in 10 years, will we all have to wear masks at work until we retire? Is this feasible? If not, then when do we stop? Will the people advocating it ever tell us to stop? If not, do we stop without their blessing? All very important considerations that everyone should be thinking about for themselves.
> will we all have to wear masks at work until we retire
It's really funny to watch all the push back against masks considering how many uncomfortable things people put on themselves every single day, and usually just because someone told them it's cool thing to do. High heels, bras, neckties, etc. and not to forget things that we do to our bodies like implants and piercings and tattoos - most of that is way less useful and a lot more uncomfortable and even more dangerous to our bodies than wearing masks, and yet we not just accept them, we love having it.
Acceptance of masks as a regular part of clothing is just a matter of making it a cool thing to do.
The difference is that those are worn by choice, and in very specific social situations. A more comparable thing would be to shoes, or shirts, since we are talking about everyone wearing them. It's not just a matter of making it cool, hats are cool and not everyone wears a hat. Facial expression is a very important part of human interaction and I think that will always outweigh any amount of cool that can be pumped into masks.
Waitresses do not wear high heels by choice and there are some jurisdictions that have banned employers from mandating that waitresses must wear heels.
Additionally I doubt that many would chose to wear an uncomfortable necktie to work if they weren't mandated to by their employers.
Oh please enough with this "choice" argument. There's a feral organism out there trying to survive by eating us alive and you're whining about "choice"?
Let me break out the crayons and draw a simple analogy that I hope will drive the point home:
it's like complaining about curfew and how ugly blackout curtains look in your living-room, while the Nazis are trying to bomb your country back to the stone-age. Does that sound monumentally egotistic and ultimately eligible for a Darwin Award?
> Acceptance of masks as a regular part of clothing is just a matter of making it a cool thing to do.
I'm completely shocked to hear someone say this with a straight face. Humanity wearing masks over their face forever as if its a tattoo or a ring. And that's what you actually think is a good thing.
I can't express my complete disgust in that opinion.
I am surprised you didn't discuss how masks affect the most fundamental aspect of social interaction - loss of facial expressions. Our faces are so pivotal to social interaction, it is impossible to overstate.
With work from home you don't need a facial expression at all. Just close your Jira tickets quick enough, and surveillance software will ensure you are not doing anything funny in your working hours.
I guess it depends from a person to person. I actually find it relaxing, as being an Eastern European + an introvert I never really got used to American habit of smiling to everyone as a social norm. With mask I look less grumpy. :)
And also I think social interactions are constantly evolving process so, if needed, people would simply adapt to a new situation. Who knows, perhaps we'd start using our hands instead of facial expressions, just like the Belters did in The Expanse novels/series because they were limited by wearing space suits all the time.
Exactly! I think we can all disagree about preferences and risk-tolerance and that's fine. Society is about learning to live with compromise. But what I don't like is how nobody will pre-commit ahead of time about what the acceptable tradeoffs are.
What are the targets? How long do we expect restrictions to stay in place for? If we miss those targets, where do we go from there? Can we just all be clear about this up front, pre-commit and stick to the plan. I'm not even saying that unexpected conditions may necessitate calling an audible. But the burden should be on those who are asking for it to explain why they screwed up.
Right now it just feels like policymakers are making it up as they along, and virtually nobody feels like its leadership in any sense of the word.
I'd say the policy makers are making political decisions because it's a political problem in their eyes. If more people are pro mask they are going to enforce masks. If people get scared they are increasing restri tions. If people get annoyed the loosen restrictions. All they are focused on are the next elections
I don't think that's the case. It's about time to say goodbye to the illusion that we're ever going to extinguish this fire. It's seems to me the COVID is about to be become endemic, this is the new normal. It's not a far off scenario any more, so it does make sense to have this discussion, right now.
Been mulling over what I really wanted to say …
This is the par for the course on hacker news to have this kind intellectual conversations, exploring potential spaces.
However, what I was trying to convey is … it’s about being friends to each other right now, as in one big human family. And doing the right thing - which means coming together to have a conversation about how to extinguish this fire. I mean, we eliminated small pox. What happened to that human spirit of cooperation?
And to me, talking about what-ifs at this level doesn’t really address the underlying issue which is … people don’t want to figure out how to help each other - this is what we need right now otherwise it’s just another layer of drama that distracts us from what’s in front of us.
Edit : we already have a solution, which is basically - vax and mask up - we literally have people dying by the hundreds if not the thousands daily - but it’s always the government that’s the problem - and thinking about mask mandates 10 years down the road is like if “sir, our neighborhoos is on fire … can you please grab that bucket and help out” was met with “but What if it goes on for another week? Should we all be beholden to keep on filling and carrying the buckets? My house over there is fine why should I worry about that? I don’t really need to help out right now? I’m just worried that i will be forced to lug buckets forever”
> It's about time to say goodbye to the illusion that we're ever going to extinguish this fire.
That's a mischaracterisation of the above. Endemic at low levels is not the same as raging pandemic. Yes, the raging fire does actually have to be damped down to low levels before we can adjust and implement next steps after that.
But measures that are necessary during a pandemic are not the same as those necessary when a disease is endemic.
Masks are a new hygiene standard. Do you think the enlightened gentlemen doctors of the age actually set a bar of how many women should die before they began to wash their hands?
They smeared, they waffled, and now they serve as the warning to all of the the terrible, prideful (and filthy) fools who robbed families of their wives, daughters, and mothers over something people today balk at the idea of not doing- washing their hands.
Tacit defense of non-consensual disease transfer costs the arguer nothing to make and hurts others. It's far simpler to enjoy the same benefits of covering your mouth and nose that medical providers have for decades: knowing they are protecting others, whether or not they understand, appreciate, or ask for it.
Jesus Christ we aren't talking about backyard c-sections with gritty fingernails here. We are talking about breathing the air and smiling at others. Get a grip.
Sorry, I spent this morning figuring out the words to share at a friend's memorial. I've been emotional.
He was vaccinated, he wore a mask, he was careful. He did his part and hurt nobody.
I hope whoever gave it to him never finds out what it cost so they could smile at others and breathe the air. I'd trade their life for his in an instant.
Maybe he got it from a small child or someone fully vaccinated or someone who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons. Yes, fully vaccinated people can get the virus and transmit it.
Would you still trade his life for theirs in an instant ?
While I'm not quite anti mask like the parent comment, it is an important question to consider, it is always a trade off. What severity warrant what measures? If there's still covid like now in 10 years, will we all have to wear masks at work until we retire? Is this feasible? If not, then when do we stop? Will the people advocating it ever tell us to stop? If not, do we stop without their blessing? All very important considerations that everyone should be thinking about for themselves.