> Some doctors earn around one million USD a year in the U.S, that's money that makes insurance more expensive and unaffordable for everyone.
You're seriously not comparing yourself to physicians in level of importance in Society, are you?!
As I said, after COVID we got a real wake up call of who mattered, and Nurses and Physicians deserve every penny that they get, its the system that is broken: see Stanford nurse strike.
Moreover, it's actually not the physician salaries that keep things unaffordable, but the over-pricing of every bloated expense, procedure, medication, drug etc... that keeps it at those levels and simply because they can.
Believe me, I just did 2 MRIs that I put off for several years because of COVID, physicians who I met before COVID who were doing well, and are probably better of financially now then before have been run-down significantly and they all had the same tells of using amphetamines/cocaine that I saw in my undergrad as pre-med students and bio students did the same courses.
The real blame is at the administrative level, and accounting not the physician or nurse level. My MRI required that 2 specialists sign off on it before the Insurance approved it and everyone took a cut, such that by the time I got my MRI it was actually less (in the 1000s) than the 2 specialist visits to get that one MRI. I did this once again for my 2nd one and the same thing.
I also got an EMG in 2019 and had to go for another one, it didn't matter that I had significant atrophy and weakness, not that I was approved for one before when it wasn't as bad as it is now. I had to go through the same process and everyone got their cut.
So, again... no you're embellishing YOUR value if you think you are comparing apples to apples, its simply not the same thing at all.
And none of you were working double shifts in an ER or Urgent care when COVID was at it's peak, or the large amount of attempted or successful suicides as lockdown, so really, get some perspective. You work on computeres, and many of you boast about really only doing 4 hours of work a day, the fact that you're posts counts are as high and still complaining about salary is testament of this very facade.
And no, I don't agree, the 'system' was not based on greed, you chose to make it about greed because so many other have as well and is another matter entirely, because most physicians and some nurses are drowning in debt by the time they get to earning a decent salary. I agree they should optimize for that given those circumstances and many have after COVID and those who haven't are jumping ship or leaving the Industry all together, which is why we should pay them whatever they deserve/ask for (within reason, of course) to retain them.
People aren't even aware of how many nurses are simply over the job entirely and will be quitting in masse.
> As I said, after COVID we got a real wake up call of who mattered, and Nurses and Physicians deserve every penny that they get
I'm not saying they don't deserve to get paid well but some doctors earn 10-15 times as much as the nurses they work with, so its not all about "value to society", it's simple market forces. I used the word greed which is very negative but we can simply call it market forces.
Also why do you think family doctors earn half as much as plastic surgeons for instance? Are plastic surgeons bringing 2X the value? If anything family doctors are first in line and responsible for hundreds of lives each year.
For the record I think both nurses and doctors oughta be paid very well, possibly much more than me, as do construction workers and kindergarten teachers. And no, I don't think a doctor should earn one million yearly but that's just my opinion. But anyway the system simply doesn't work like that. The market doesn't care much about who works the hardest or who contributes the most to society.
Few American dr's make $1M. Most of those that make many multiples more than nurses are specialists, and they are still much less than $1M. I do know ones that do better... Because they are involved in effectively second jobs around biotech startups, maybe clinical trials, vs the actual patient care. I've been curious on celebrity patients (who seem to be more about donations/endowments.) You can get $700k by being the only specialist in the middle of nowhere and working nonstop, but most prefer not to.
Instead, someone doing regular family medicine is more like $150-250k... Less than a US programmer with significantly less training & responsibilities. You don't get big RSU refreshers for saving lives.
But the interesting thing is comparing over time. Specialists not only likely took loans and no salary for the stressful years of college, med school, and then residency, but then did another 2-4 years of fellowship, and really good ones, another 4-7 years of underpaid phd. They are making up for 1-2 decades of being underpaid and even debt, beyond the daily stress. More fun? As all the pay comes deferred in big batches, it is also taxed at ~double the rate of everyone else. Triple hit for savings: they don't get the compounding investment bump of people who started to get paid 1-2 decades sooner. Insurance is high too - disability, liability, etc. that regular people don't pay.
After another decade or two it balances out and starts being more than others, and then they retire.
I am not really comparing whose situation is better but since you brought it up: Doctors in general earn more but work much much harder. They also have much much better job security, it is unheard of for a doctor to be considered obsolete at his 50s.
I wouldn't want the life of a doctor personally but financially it is the better field imo, on average.
Maybe put differently: You can be 9-5 FAANG type and retire as early as 40. In contrast, due to the delayed paycheck for specialists... they're looking at another 10 years after that. Likewise, at FAANG, you're living large as a 20-something, while specialists are running on debt & tiny stipends while going through crazy stress: you don't get to enjoy that paycheck while in your prime. There are always outliers, but with 500K+ well-paid folks just in FAANG, and probably 1M+ when other high paying are included, there's a reason even medical folks are getting squeezed out of the bay area.
> You're seriously not comparing yourself to physicians in level of importance in Society, are you?!
Oh please.
One of the fun things about MDs and dentists is that it's one of the only professions where the supply of those people is strictly controlled by the people who are in danger of being replaced. There are VASTLY more people qualified of being excellent cardiologists and neurologists than there are spots to be trained in those specialties. The exclusivity of the practicing physicians on the field is what limits supply and increases demand.
what a weird statement. Would doctors be as valuable without modern tech or medicine? I don't view any group as some sort of elite class, gracing the rest of us with their existence.
> what a weird statement. Would doctors be as valuable without modern tech or medicine? I don't view any group as some sort of elite class, gracing the rest of us with their existence.
False equivalence, and this is akin to one asking if you would be where you are if electricity ever got invented. It's all built on someone's else's shoulders, and the fact that you can say this underscores exactly what I mean.
They save lives, you are one of many who push code that could potentially be of use to use to someone who does is not the same thing.
It's only weird because it conflicts with your copium, you two are not the same thing and society doesn't rely on you as heavily as you think you do.
> One of the fun things about MDs and dentists is that it's one of the only professions where the supply of those people is strictly controlled by the people who are in danger of being replaced.
I'm aware of the AMA's practices, I did my undergrad with pre-meds; I know how the system works, That still doesn't change what I said, you weren't working doubles in an ER during COVID. You were likely at home working normal hours and on Zoom calls, you really can't compare the two professions at all.
Just because the medical system itself is broken doesn't detract from what I said either, it's entirely broken and I explained my situation that I feel best reflects that with an anecdote, too.
> No one deserves anything beyond basic human rights. I have great respect for the work done by doctors, but other countries pay doctors far less and still achieve better health outcomes. As a society, are we getting a good value for our money?
See above.
And just so it's clear the same goes for software developers; I think we can all agree that most coding interviews are a waste of time, and as most get more experience under their belt they are less tolerant of the absurdity of it all. That doesn't diminish the talent that exists in this Industry.
Personally speaking it's something that I'm dreading about coming back into the tech Industry; I come from startup land as a founder, and my only interview at a tech firm was just the telling me about what project I'd be working on if I decided to join, they didn't even probe me for anything as I got head-hunted and they already did their research on me before they ever reached out.
I'm pretty sure that will be the case this time around and sitting around white-boarding sounds like a total waste without more than 7 years in the Industry to me, too.
It is not a false equivalence. Doctors are not scalable. Is the physicality of it increase the value? The inventor of antibiotics has saved more lives than any single doctor. I might agree that a lot of developers are working on trivial things, but that doesn't take away from the fact that all modern advances in areas that save lives have software engineers directly involved somewhere in the chain to make that advance.
No one deserves anything beyond basic human rights. I have great respect for the work done by doctors, but other countries pay doctors far less and still achieve better health outcomes. As a society, are we getting a good value for our money?
You're seriously not comparing yourself to physicians in level of importance in Society, are you?!
As I said, after COVID we got a real wake up call of who mattered, and Nurses and Physicians deserve every penny that they get, its the system that is broken: see Stanford nurse strike.
Moreover, it's actually not the physician salaries that keep things unaffordable, but the over-pricing of every bloated expense, procedure, medication, drug etc... that keeps it at those levels and simply because they can.
Believe me, I just did 2 MRIs that I put off for several years because of COVID, physicians who I met before COVID who were doing well, and are probably better of financially now then before have been run-down significantly and they all had the same tells of using amphetamines/cocaine that I saw in my undergrad as pre-med students and bio students did the same courses.
The real blame is at the administrative level, and accounting not the physician or nurse level. My MRI required that 2 specialists sign off on it before the Insurance approved it and everyone took a cut, such that by the time I got my MRI it was actually less (in the 1000s) than the 2 specialist visits to get that one MRI. I did this once again for my 2nd one and the same thing.
I also got an EMG in 2019 and had to go for another one, it didn't matter that I had significant atrophy and weakness, not that I was approved for one before when it wasn't as bad as it is now. I had to go through the same process and everyone got their cut.
So, again... no you're embellishing YOUR value if you think you are comparing apples to apples, its simply not the same thing at all.
And none of you were working double shifts in an ER or Urgent care when COVID was at it's peak, or the large amount of attempted or successful suicides as lockdown, so really, get some perspective. You work on computeres, and many of you boast about really only doing 4 hours of work a day, the fact that you're posts counts are as high and still complaining about salary is testament of this very facade.
And no, I don't agree, the 'system' was not based on greed, you chose to make it about greed because so many other have as well and is another matter entirely, because most physicians and some nurses are drowning in debt by the time they get to earning a decent salary. I agree they should optimize for that given those circumstances and many have after COVID and those who haven't are jumping ship or leaving the Industry all together, which is why we should pay them whatever they deserve/ask for (within reason, of course) to retain them.
People aren't even aware of how many nurses are simply over the job entirely and will be quitting in masse.