"My comment was mainly focused on the tie between memory and consciousness, which I think is generally over-stated. People who get "blackout drunk" at a party are still conscious during the party."
This is just about semantics of the word. I am not engaging in discussions about semantics. I am interested in the phenomenon.
Also, you are misrepresenting my understanding of the relationship between memory and consciousness.
"Many traditions had a long experience in looking up at the sun and moon and came to the shared understanding that they were gods. The intellectual approach is what allowed us to actually figure it out."
Just this week I read how somebody figured out that "waterfall method" was a straw man, and practically nobody was actually developing software like that. This is how it goes. I used to think like you. But after really learning about it, I realized that there have been people that have been very wise in the history. Sometimes they discuss things allegorically, because it is necessary for effective communication.
"I don't know what "understanding consciousness" could possibly mean if it doesn't mean understanding it at an intellectual, analytical level. If you ask someone to explain what effect produces a rainbow, they might reasonably say "shut up dude, just sit here and enjoy it with me." That's totally fine! You may claim to appreciate rainbows more than physicists. But you don't understand them better."
In software, we have architecture astronauts that have an analytical understanding of the architecture. But then come the developers who actually implement things, and they will come to understand the limitations of the architecture when the architecture meets reality. If the architect has their head in the clouds and refuses to accept the new understanding from this clash with reality, his architecture may be intellectually satisfying, but it will not be succesful. This is one example how analytical mind is quite limited. Understanding requires both knowledge and experience.
"I honestly don't believe that I do. If I were required to understand what the Ancient Greeks and Siddhartha Gautama and Confucius all said about the tides before I learned about the moon's gravity, then I'd never learn anything at all! It's OK to reject incorrect ideas."
What they said is not important. You need to have an experience tasting strawberry if you want to have a meaningful discussion with me about the taste of strawberry.
"See that's where I completely disagree. If I don't remember having a stomach ache, does that mean I was never in pain? People forget things! You can also forget the experience of having been conscious! Our memories are very efficient at selectively forgetting the mundane; we are so highly conscious all the time that it is mundane. If I asked you to rate your level of consciousness yesterday, you'd probably rate it lower (more baseline/auto) than you would if I started showing you videos of everything you were doing yesterday. Suddenly you'd remember: oh yeah, I actually was conscious!"
This argument is mostly about the semantics of the word consciousness. I am not going to argue about that.
I would not reassess my thought whether I was conscious if I was shown videos about myself even if it helped me to remember what I did yesterday.
For me the consciousness means I am aware of myself in the moment. Higher consciousness means the experience is stronger, hence it is more difficult to forget the experience. That does not mean that memory is the same thing as the consciousness.
The memory imprint you are talking about is very different from the memory imprint I am talking about.
People forget things, but if you are blessed with an experience of being more conscious, you will understand how such an experience will be more difficult to forget.
Wedding day or an accident might not leave a stronger than usual imprint although we think it is something great we ought to remember. They also might.
"You are effectively accusing other people of not being as conscious as you because they don't meditate."
I am not more conscious than anybody else. If I thought I was more conscious than anybody else, this would actually be hubris and I would be less conscious than everybody else. I have been blessed with a few experiences of being conscious, but that does not make me a better person in any way and does not help me being more conscious right now. I just happen to have tasted the strawberry so I know what it tastes like.
This is just about semantics of the word. I am not engaging in discussions about semantics. I am interested in the phenomenon.
Also, you are misrepresenting my understanding of the relationship between memory and consciousness.
"Many traditions had a long experience in looking up at the sun and moon and came to the shared understanding that they were gods. The intellectual approach is what allowed us to actually figure it out."
Just this week I read how somebody figured out that "waterfall method" was a straw man, and practically nobody was actually developing software like that. This is how it goes. I used to think like you. But after really learning about it, I realized that there have been people that have been very wise in the history. Sometimes they discuss things allegorically, because it is necessary for effective communication.
"I don't know what "understanding consciousness" could possibly mean if it doesn't mean understanding it at an intellectual, analytical level. If you ask someone to explain what effect produces a rainbow, they might reasonably say "shut up dude, just sit here and enjoy it with me." That's totally fine! You may claim to appreciate rainbows more than physicists. But you don't understand them better."
In software, we have architecture astronauts that have an analytical understanding of the architecture. But then come the developers who actually implement things, and they will come to understand the limitations of the architecture when the architecture meets reality. If the architect has their head in the clouds and refuses to accept the new understanding from this clash with reality, his architecture may be intellectually satisfying, but it will not be succesful. This is one example how analytical mind is quite limited. Understanding requires both knowledge and experience.
"I honestly don't believe that I do. If I were required to understand what the Ancient Greeks and Siddhartha Gautama and Confucius all said about the tides before I learned about the moon's gravity, then I'd never learn anything at all! It's OK to reject incorrect ideas."
What they said is not important. You need to have an experience tasting strawberry if you want to have a meaningful discussion with me about the taste of strawberry.
"See that's where I completely disagree. If I don't remember having a stomach ache, does that mean I was never in pain? People forget things! You can also forget the experience of having been conscious! Our memories are very efficient at selectively forgetting the mundane; we are so highly conscious all the time that it is mundane. If I asked you to rate your level of consciousness yesterday, you'd probably rate it lower (more baseline/auto) than you would if I started showing you videos of everything you were doing yesterday. Suddenly you'd remember: oh yeah, I actually was conscious!"
This argument is mostly about the semantics of the word consciousness. I am not going to argue about that.
I would not reassess my thought whether I was conscious if I was shown videos about myself even if it helped me to remember what I did yesterday.
For me the consciousness means I am aware of myself in the moment. Higher consciousness means the experience is stronger, hence it is more difficult to forget the experience. That does not mean that memory is the same thing as the consciousness.
The memory imprint you are talking about is very different from the memory imprint I am talking about.
People forget things, but if you are blessed with an experience of being more conscious, you will understand how such an experience will be more difficult to forget.
Wedding day or an accident might not leave a stronger than usual imprint although we think it is something great we ought to remember. They also might.
"You are effectively accusing other people of not being as conscious as you because they don't meditate."
I am not more conscious than anybody else. If I thought I was more conscious than anybody else, this would actually be hubris and I would be less conscious than everybody else. I have been blessed with a few experiences of being conscious, but that does not make me a better person in any way and does not help me being more conscious right now. I just happen to have tasted the strawberry so I know what it tastes like.