Again an opinion, Musk said it was not a Nazi salute, he didn't repeat it, he has many Jewish supporters also saying it wasn't. Just stop, please, I'm really about to give up on the comment sections here.
I’m out of the loop here. Has Musk done anything related to nazi symbols (besides that weird gesture that some people say is a nazi salute), or funded Nazi organizations?
AFD is indeed a far-right party and the optics of Musk supporting it are to put it mildly bizarre, but it is also one of the largest political parties in Germany, not a "Nazi organization". They advocate halting immigration, not genocide.
The AfD goes beyond just opposing immigration and they struggle to shake their Nazi links. Talks of deporting immigrants, getting into minimising SS culpability for Nazi crimes, use of Nazi slogans, links to convicted Nazis and banned Nazi parties.
As a Jew there’s no difference to me between those who knowingly repeat Nazi slogans (i.e AfD) and “real” Nazis. It’s very easy to not be a Nazi, it’s unnecessary to make excuses for those who know what they are doing.
Germans (i.e. ethnic German citizens), should be held to a higher standard, because they are educated on this, there’s no excuse.
Israel supporter and antisemite aren't mutually exclusive[0]. In the past it was to get the Jews out of Europe (be it to Madagascar or Palestine), now it's because they hate Muslims more than Jews and see Israeli society as a template for a similar far-right Christian society.
Obviously most AfD supporters are not everyday antisemites, but they are casting their votes for antisemites. I don't care to split hairs. Germans know better and do not get to plead ignorance.
Musk could perhaps have been given the benefit of the doubt, he doesn't seem to understand European politics so it's possible he could have confused AfD as being the German equivalent of Reform UK or RN (neither of which want to be associated with AfD) ...that is until he made that salute.
[0] nor are anti-Zionist and Jew mutually exclusive for that matter. Before WWII the creation of Israel was the subject of debate within the Jewish community. The Holocaust and happenings in the Soviet Union obviously shifted that debate firmly in one direction. In some sense the Palestinians are victims of the European far-right and far-left by proxy, though I am not shifting blame.
After doing the "weird gesture", rather than apologising for doing something that many people interpreted as a nazi gesture, he made a load of crappy puns about it involving the names of various high-ranking nazi leaders
You don't need to apologise for every accusation you get. You should probably address a widespread belief that you are making very offensive gestures, clarify what you meant and apologise for the confusion.
Also could you define "wokeism" for me? Everyone seems to be using a different definition so its hard to know what people actually mean when they say it
Question is why media decided to continue spinning the same narrative despite looking like idiots? Is it clicks, political agenda or journalistic integrity? It's not hard to see...
I think the downvotes might be from your repeating the "weird gesture" phrase that is currently being used to sane-wash what actually happened. Anyone who doesn't think what Musk did was a Nazi salute, I encourage you to go into work, do it in front of your manager, and see what happens.
Sure, I agree with you, it just depends on what you want HN to be. I am an outsider to the US, I see your country as deeply divided. Families torn apart because of how they vote. Unthinkable here, probably unthinkable over there up until 10 years ago. In fact it seems more and more likely the US will erupt in a civil war, and split in 2.
It just such a shame that HN, what I see as a gathering ground of intelligent people, is so much contributing to the divide by labeling people with other opinions as sub-humans almost. Belligerent, closed, judging. I don't like it.
Remember that the division you see is amplified by polarizing voices that are naturally amplified by the medium that is the Internet. If you actually traveled to the US, did a long road trip across the country and sat down and talked to actual Americans, I expect you will find that the vast majority don't have strong opinions about who runs the country. They just want to afford rent and groceries.
Also if you think nerdy people who hang out on HN are immune to being "belligerent, closed-minded and judgy", you haven't worked with many nerdy people. We technical/intellectual types tend to be very logical and rational, until we're not.
Is it more frightening or less than being legally banned from existence? You don’t have to know much about history to see why people start cutting abusive relationships.
Welcome to the downfall of civilization. It happens precisely because one side (or one player on one side) decides to stop playing infinite games, and start playing finite games instead. They weaponize your civility against you. The incentives for both sides shift, and we enter a downward spiral.
I'm not sure I've said anything that would indicate that i am , but I'm not from the US.
> Families torn apart because of how they vote
That's reductive in my opinion, I'd consider it a misrepresentation of the situation, at best.
Given your other comments i'd lean towards it being intentional misrepresentation, but i could be wrong, either way i doubt we'll come to an understanding on this point so i'll just leave it there.
> Unthinkable here, probably unthinkable over their up until 10 years ago.
I doubt this is true, but if you genuinely think it's just a box ticking exercise and not a representation of ideology and perspective then it's possible we just have a fundamental disagreement of what's actually happening, so of course we'd disagree on interpretations.
> In fact it seems more and more likely the US will erupt in a civil war, and split in 2.
This i can see though.
> It just such a shame that HN, what I see as a gathering ground of intelligent people,
"Intelligent" people aren't inherently apolitical in my experience, they are also significantly less likely to not call you on something they see as bullshit.
If you are looking for a place where you can define a perspective or opinion and not be challenged on it, this is absolutely not the place for you.
> is so much contributing to the divide by labeling people with other opinions as sub-humans almost.
I'm genuinely not sure how to address this level of cognitive dissonance.
Either it's intentional, in which case no amount of discussion will be productive or it's unintentional and i don't know how to begin to address it.
> Belligerent, closed, judging. I don't like it.
You literally rocked up and replied to a thread with judgement based on a non-standard interpretation of a statement and then proceeded to say, multiple times, how disappointed you were that people expressed opinions different to your own, so much so that you expressed that you might leave if they didn't stop.
As i said elsewhere, you don't have to (and IMO shouldn't) stay in a place you don't like, but if you're going to be upset by responses with differing opinions to your own i doubt this is a place you are going to enjoy.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
― George Orwell, 1984
The entire world knows it is a nazi salute, and people defending it do too. They would never put themselves on camera doing this because they know it is indefensible.
> Again an opinion, Musk said it was not a Nazi salute [...]
Has he actually said it wasn't a Nazi salute? My last update was that he responded to questions about this by making Nazi jokes, I haven't seen any actual denial. Could you share when he did so, so I don't spread inaccurate information? Thank you.
I’m not sure that you can reasonably expect people to ignore this particular elephant in the room just for the sake of your psychological comfort, honestly.
