On chronic coffee consumption: "One meta-analysis found that RR coffee 0.757, RR caffeine 0.721 (12). Another one found RR 0.76, with an optimal protective effect at ∼400 mL/day (13). In comparison to many drug treatments that have an effect size in this range, this is not a small effect size. A risk reduction of 20 to 25% is quite impressive."
One thing I've learned over the years is that specifically setting out to enjoy and appreciate something on a daily basis is beneficial to overall satisfaction with life. And for me, that's my morning cuppa before the rest of the house wakes up. Is it (just) the coffee or is it (also) the rituals surrounding coffee?
Father of three here. I also enjoy very much this moment of the day, the calm before the storm. It was a real motivation to wake up a bit earlier.
One day, I decided to stop coffee for some weeks. My motivation to wake up before my kids vanished in a few days. I was quite surprised since it used to be a real pleasure. I guess the ritual part was much less important than the coffee chemical role.
Is it the addictive substance or the ritual I created around it?
I used to think this same thing, that my enjoyment of coffee was largely the ritual. But then I switched to decaf for quite a long time and all my little rituals fell away quite quickly.
I still occasionally drank coffee when I felt like the taste, but I certainly wasn’t performing daily morning ritual.
I’ve switched to decaf full time and a my generalised anxiety basically went away. I love coffee and still drink it ritualistically. I probably drink more coffee now, at all hours of the day (caffeinated coffee after 12 really messed my sleep).
Also once per week I allow myself an espresso, and I get a nice buzz from it that lasts the entire day.
That’s the ritalin. Find a healthier alternative like an energy bar with that double espresso. I find if I stack too much at once, I crash. One cup in the morning when I wake up. One before work right before the meetings. One in the afternoon to keep me fueled until dinner where I let myself gorge on protein and sugars until I crash.
suggest many many cups of 1/3 caffeinated and 2/3 decaf. There are some observed health benefits to even decaf coffee... and its got potassium besides. I drink around 10 of these. lower longer peak. Joy!
Same. During the week on meds I find that drinking more than half a litre just provokes unpleasant sweating and makes me feel frantic, some amount of brain fog and occasionally a mild headache, especially if I haven't been chugging water, which I guess is probably what most normal people get from coffee
but yeah, exercising can be an addiction? as sex. now doing these daily is fine. it turns into addiction when you can't stop or interfere negatively with your routine
Well, that's a bit of an unfair projection; I'm fairly fastidious about keeping my consumption around 2-3 cups a day before 11am and taking occasional tolerance breaks without consequence. But if you feel like your coffee intake is a problem that you have trouble controlling, maybe cut back.
Addiction to any given substance is highly variable from person to person, and there's a lot of data to back that up.
I recall a friend describing their struggle to quit caffeine, which I mocked at first, until I realized it sounded exactly like my brutal struggle to quit nicotine. Yet, plenty of people quit cigarettes effortlessly. Nicotine is one of the most variable, but caffeine, alcohol and cocaine vary widely too. I imagine we'd find this is the case for most substances if we had the data. In a sane world, we'd give every kid their addiction predisposition profile when they turn 13.
The hardest part of quitting anything is changing the behavioral habits that came with it.
For smoking, I bet you have the urge after a meal to smoke. Maybe you’re triggered when you drive long distances to “calm the nerves”. The issue is those triggers, those behaviors, need to be unlearned before you can attempt to quit. That’s why it’s easy for people who haven’t developed those behavioral habits and hard a hell for those who have. Former smoker myself so I totally get it. I can give that up, but caffeine - coffee? I’ll die with a cup on the counter half full.
The literature on this is clear cut. People absorb, metabolize and experience drugs differently, which has a big impact on how addiction takes hold. It's obviously not the only factor! But it's a big one and somewhat quantifiable.
Personally, I wasn't a "trigger" smoker, I was an "every chance I got smoker". I assume my nicotine metabolism is higher than average, which is linked to frequency of consumption and hence propensity for addiction. I also assume I have fast caffeine metabolism since I consume it at all hours with no consequence, but unlike nicotine that's linked to a lower propensity for addiction, which matches my experience.
Caffeine is not chemically addictive. It can lead to depedency but that is not addiction. Motivation and wanting are not altered but unpleasant withdrawl effects can occur.
There is no real importance to the concept of “chemically addictive” and it has largely gone out of favor in psychology. Even physical behaviors like gambling and sex that obviously cannot directly, chemically act on reward system pathways, can still be just as life destroying addictive and challenging to quit as any drug. The dsm now classifies gambling disorder as an addiction.
Caffeine, unlike some drugs and alcohol, doesn't cause severe withdrawal symptoms. Because of that, experts don't label regular caffeine use as an addiction.
What’s the point of this distinction, what does it mean that it’s not chemically addictive? It causes withdrawals, dependence, it definitely acts on brain chemistry.
That lancet article very well refutes the point you are trying to make. The term “chemical addiction” is not really used anymore because it really just refers to mechanisms of chemical dependence, which are neither necessary or sufficient to cause addiction on their own.
There has been a major shift in how addiction is understood in modern research, but you have it backwards- your perspective of chemical addiction or direct chemical mechanism being important is the old discredited concept, not the new one, which sees it as a psychological process that requires no direct chemical mechanism at all.
The explanation for the headaches is that coffee raises blood pressure short term, and the blood vessels in the brain prepare for the predicted caffeine ingestion, and if it doesn't come there will be a mismatch.
That's called chemical dependence and it's the point I'm trying to make. Dependence is not addiction. Addiction means wanting is hijacked, not that stopping is aversive.
Addiction and dependence have real medical meanings and in the context of this discussion and we shouldn't mix them up. See this very short and to the point lancet medical journal summary, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...
>Addiction (synonymous with substance use disorder), as defined by the DSM-5, entails compulsive use, craving, and impaired control over drug taking in addition to physical dependence. The vast majority of patients taking medications such as opioids and benzodiazepines are doing so as prescribed by clinicians, with only 1·5% of people taking benzodiazepine being addicted, for example. Physical dependence is much more common than addiction. Importantly, withdrawal effects occur irrespective of whether these drugs are taken as prescribed or misused.
>Failure to distinguish between addiction and physical dependence can have real-life consequences. People who have difficulty stopping their medications because of withdrawal effects can be accused of addiction or misuse. Misdiagnosis of physical dependence as addiction can also lead to inappropriate management, including referral to 12-step addiction-based detoxification and rehabilitation centres, focusing on psychological aspects of harmful use rather than the physiology of withdrawal.
>It should be made clear that dependence is not the same as addiction. The problems with prescribed drug dependence are not restricted to the small minority who are misusing or addicted to these drugs, but to the wider population who are physically dependent on and might not be able easily to stop their medications because of withdrawal effects. Antidepressants (superkuh note: and caffeine) should be categorised with other drugs that cause withdrawal syndromes as dependence-forming medications, while noting that they do not cause addiction.
I also enjoy my morning ritual of preparing the grinds and brewing a fresh pot. But I'll be honest, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter where I get it -- brunch at a nice restaurant, Starbucks, McDonalds, a cheap hotel buffet, lukewarm from a flight attendant ... as long as I get it. Sounds healthy, right?! ;)
One thing you learn from reading depression papers is that there are a lot of things that supposedly have significant effects on depression according to some papers, but then fail to work when people try them or they’re tested in trials.
The linked paper is pretty obvious AI paper mill content, so I wouldn’t take anything it says as directly true without checking citations. The citation is a meta-analysis so you’d have to check the criteria and the studies.
The most common explanation for the “everything treats depression” result is inclusion of studies that have no control group. The placebo response rate in depression studies is very high as many patients revert to the mean of being not-super-depressed after they are so depressed that they enroll in a study for depression treatments. Paper writers seeking a positive result will abuse this to their benefit by omitting the control group. They’ll collect depressed patients, give them some treatment, and when the average improves they’ll publish a paper saying that the treatment has positive effects in depression. So after reading a lot of papers about depression, you start dismissing claims by default unless you can confirm they came from a properly powered, placebo-controlled, double-blind study.
But hey, if you’re already drinking coffee and enjoying it, continue to enjoy it!
I don’t have hard data, but I think this optimal value is very closely approximated by coffee drinkers’ daily average. 400 ml is about 1.75 cups, and i think the normal distribution of coffee cups among drinkers is centered at ~2 cups. Makes me wonder if we’re all self medicating and accidentally finding the sweet spot.
Maybe this is normal for mice but the dose of ketamine used (5-20 mg/kg) seems high? I know mice metabolism is very different but that's in the range of a gram of ketamine for a normal sized human.
The mice may not have been depressed because it's hard to be depressed when you're in a k hole
It kinda makes sense if you consider depression to be a mechanism to get into winter hibernation. It's just we can't hibernate and even if we could, somebody has to pay them bills.
I never knew that “acute intermittent hypoxia” was a known treatment for depression, but I’ve found both freediving and Wim Hof breathing to be effective at treating my depression- however never the two at the same time as that is extremely dangerous.
Interesting… I will look into that. Part of Wim Hofs teachings include breathing with an extremely long exhale while humming which sounds related. I’ve heard of research showing that any type of breathing with longer exhales than inhales activates a parasympathetic response, calming you down.
I suspect you’re missing something important- not surprising since Wim is a really unclear teacher. The low oxygen and/or high co2 causes your body to panic and you are supposed to use that as a stimulus to gradually train conscious control of your heart rate and stress response and calm yourself down. This is where the benefit comes from, not the short term physiological panic itself, whose symptoms you are describing. In fact, those symptoms should go away entirely when you learn to calm the panic and consciously control your autonomic nervous system. This then also primes you mentally to be able to go into ice water, which is also a large stimulus to learn to calm, plus trains your brain to more easily jump into anything difficult. All of this takes months or years of consistent practice to gradually develop a relatively permanent sense of calm and internal strength among other things, and is really just a simplified form of tantric tummo meditation.
This appears to be some kind of AI-slop rapid response to a piece of actual research (over at https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-09755-9 ). I don't mind discussing that, but this piece should never have been published. Just look at Figure 2 if you don't believe me, or the publication timeline.
Wholly anecdotal, but as a 52 year old nearly-lifelong caffeine (ab)user I quit this year and the withdrawal period was horrendous -- not for the headaches everyone knows about (they were bad but only lasted a couple of days) but for the somewhat extended depression/anhedonia which I had never really experienced before.
I was worried during that stretch of time that maybe the caffeine had been masking some underlying depression I already had, but a couple of weeks in it passed, so I think my brain just needed to rebalance itself to the new caffeine-free reality.
I'm glad I quit (less anxiety, better sleep, I'm finding it a lot easier to eat healthy while not buzzed on caffeine all the time, and the depressive episode was temporary) but going through that makes it pretty easy for me to believe caffeine can have rather powerful effects in this area.
I think a lot of the difficulty in quitting can be mitigated by slowly titrating down the dose over a month or two instead of quitting cold turkey.
But your experience mirrors mine in going cold turkey which I think demonstrates that caffeine can cause both physical chemical dependence, and psychological addiction.
It'd be extraordinary compelling to genuinely have a unified mechanism to explain depression treatments, but I am not qualified to make heads or tails of the research. Wondering what the take of those with relevant experience is on this?
Not an expert, but the standout thing about ketamine in particular is that it targets an entirely different neurotransmitter pathway than almost all traditional anxiety and depression meds. Traditionally, people treating serious depression or anxiety rotate through a variety of drugs that all hit same small set of neurotransmitters and settle on the one that works the best/sucks the least.
This is why people get excited about ketamine and psychedelics as therapeutics. Otherwise, we're just sitting around waiting for the next round of "new" drugs that manipulate the same pathways as all the old drugs (and carry much of the same risks).
It seems that a session like 10×100 m sprints with <90 seconds of rest produces a metabolic pattern very similar to acute intermittent hypoxia, short intense bouts with incomplete recovery. Am I thinking about this right?
This is also true that sleep deprivation can act as shock therapy! But it seems to still indicate that depression can be caused by chronic adenosine dysfunction. So temporary sleep deprivation will put the adenosine system in a state it isn't usually in, and alleviate symptoms.
As if I needed another reason to drink coffee.
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