https://www.yubico.com/?lang=sv

> this could probably be avoided by extending the sites terms.

Reading the judgement, I don’t think so. Consent is required before exposing the IP address and is must be explicitly given. Terms can help in cases where there is a technical requirement, for example “if you want to watch this embedded video, you must consent to this”, but they won’t save you when you just embed.

For the average user, it's yet another thing to click without thinking, just to be able to visit a page.

> Consent is required before exposing the IP address and is must be explicitly given

There's the crux of the problem, it's difficult to know what to consent for without first displaying the website, so you implicitly give consent for "just the bare minimum", until you accept the rest. This sounds great, but is both an absolute nightmare for website developers (it's not very easy to do, with how the internet was designed, inline scripts, fonts, CDN stylesheets) and for "most" end-users who just expect good defaults and don't want to sign a consent form every time they visit a website.

> For the average user, it's yet another thing to click without thinking, just to be able to visit a page.

And yet, they’re still protected: They’ll click on the video when they want to watch the video, load the like button when they want to like, the tweet button when they want to tweet. And all the other times when they visit a website that offers any of this functionality, no data is transmitted to YouTube, Facebook, Twitter.

> This sounds great, but is both an absolute nightmare for website developers (it's not very easy to do, with how the internet was designed, inline scripts, fonts, CDN stylesheets

There is no need to ask for consent for every Stylesheet you load from a CDN. You’re allowed to use cloudflare, cloudfront, fastly,… - they’ll all provide the required DPA that allows you to use them without consent. You need to be careful when it comes to things like like-buttons etc. that get loaded from places that use them to create user profiles for non-consenting users. Yes, that’s hard. But the culprits are the entities that siphon up every bit of data. Direct your ire there.

And Google doesn't? (Honest questions)

On first look serving a font from Google and a stylesheet from Cloudflare seem very, very similar things.

AFAIK google fonts does not require any contract. Google could certainly offer a contract, a DPA, etc., assert that they are subject to the GDPR and waive processing of the data they gather from operating google fonts as a service.

Also the late web was designed by guess who: Yes, the ad-spyware companies…

What the EU actually wants to accomplish is to set a standard where people do business in a different (safer/higher quality/more ethical) way[1]; which many believe is both better for consumers and for business.

I wouldn't be surprised if a next round of regulations were to explicitly target (actual or perceived) malicious compliance.

My recommendation would be to find other ways of achieving your technical/advertising objectives that minimize the touching of peoples PII.

[1] This is not unusual, the EU originated as the European Economic [Community/Union], and the regulating of safety, quality and ethics standards between businesses and trading countries has been in their bailiwick for a long time (as behooves a trade treaty organization). Not all kinds of regulation are bad for commerce. This kind promotes fair competition and interoperability, while preventing races to the bottom and tragedies of the commons.

Why single out Germany? Do you have experience doing business there?

When everybody would use it, and ISPs would sell access, that could help the users to regain control over their data, and make privacy on the internet finally first class.

I welcome this idea.

Yes, and that's a good thing! A web page should only communicate with the server i've reached, there should be zero third-party involved unless i explicitly consent.

That for example <img> tag can use an arbitrary URL is explained by the fact that back in the day storage/bandwidth was expensive. The same is true for video to this day, but i guess it's good that heavy-to-load content is click-to-play.

> there should be zero third-party involved unless i explicitly consent.

Hyperlinks are the foundation of the web. However, when we started loading resources (eg. images) from third parties due to high bandwidth/disk cost, we opened a Pandora's box which i believe does more harm than good.

Easiest way to deal with this is to self-host the videos. Most people over-estimate how popular their websites are, and for the ones who don't, getting a dedicated instance with unmetered bandwidth is trivial to get and setup for video-hosting.

In the past when video was a novelty and no one had any real expectation of performance or quality, it didn’t matter much because expectations were low.

But so much work has been done since on reliability/performance/network efficiency and very few products can provide that. Without that work, people will think your player is broken, you will waste mobile traffic, etc. Even Reddit can’t get it right and they are a top 10 website.

Plus YouTube handles all re-encoding and adjust the quality based on the speed and device.

It is possible to do it with open-source components, but it requires a server farm and just not feasible using single cheap private server or VPS.

Now if only browsers would implement native HLS and/or DASH support then every site could have this without having to package a bunch of JS with different quirks of reach site.

Of course, it is not really in Google's interest to help YouTube competitors so this is unlikely to happen for Chrome.

For most videos, this would be a copyright violation. i.e. there are now two laws which prevent reasonable technological solutions, making it harder for most people to host and produce content - favoring the already heavily advantaged big companies.

The solution to bad law is not to ignore it, it's to follow it to the letter, every time. Only then will people sit up take notice, and weigh the tradeoffs. In particular, we've let industry run away with far too much of the public's right to do things.

For example, say I want to embed an instagram post on my website. You could argue that I should talk to the person who took the picture and get a license for the image so that I can host i on my own domain rather than loading the content for instagram. In practice this is obviously much, much more cumbersome than embedding the IG post and so would result in huge changes how websites work (by vastly reducing any externally loaded content).

In a similar vein, you could argue that serving cached content from another host is not strictly necessary. Why not just run your own caching servers? It's probably worse in most ways (my cache server << cloudflare's cache server), but if minimising the amount of content loaded from external hosts is your aim then it is feasible.

In that case, you could:

a) get a license (your suggestion),

b) link but not embed Instagram pages, or

c) embed in such a way that it shows a user-controlled notification that opening the embed will connect to Instagram and as a consequence sends data to Meta.

And indeed, some websites use c) without any problem, they even integrate it into the cookie popup. BBC even steps it up: all of their Twitter citations are screencapped and linked instead of other websites just embedding Twitter (in their defense, they can say that this is to preserve the context in case that the user subsequently deleted the post).

This is how we arrive at cookie popups and annoying "you're leaving our website" notifications. I posit that perhaps both of these could be a feature of HTTP protocol and the browsers - i.e. a browser could just display a small standard icon in its UI notifying user that he's consenting to cookies, and another one notifying him that he's being redirected outside of the domain he's in, The user could then configure the browser to auto-accept or auto-deny such attempts, review all the consents he's given earlier etc. - all in all, it would result in much better UX.

Google has probably not proposed and implemented something like this in Chrome already only because it would actually improve privacy and that's obviously not in their interest. Which proves that de facto giving up Web standards to the commercial entity was never a good idea. If the EU was better at execution, they would mandate something like this as the law, instead of the current requirements which can be met by just spamming users with popups no one reads.

So, working as intended I think.

Imagine a kind of decision square. Rows are "consciously" and "unconsciously", Columns are PII collection, and privacy (no PII collection) .

This gives us a list of 4 possible scenarios (from least to most desirable). 1. unconscious privacy, 2. unconscious PII collection , 3. conscious PII collection, 4. conscious privacy

In detail (least to most desirable situation)

Box 1: Early internet everyone had unconscious privacy. No one was collecting PII, and no one was aware of it.

Box 2: Early 21st century, people started collecting PII at an ever increasing (and frankly alarming) rate. You may have encountered tall tales where people got sent baby advertisements before they themselves even knew they were pregnant.

Box 3: The goal of the GDPR, shine a light on the situation and make everyone conscious that there is a problem; and unveil the extent.

Box 4 (future): fix the underlying problem.

GDPR already addresses box 4 a little bit. Just by shining a light on these practices, some of the slightly shady bits at the edges are already solved.

Now that the situation is visible and known, we can take further political steps at mitigation.

What's disheartening is that in physical stores, this already started happening in the '90s, mainly for analysis of loyalty programs' data.

If you need to notify the user that he is "giving consent" then there is no consent.

> and another one notifying him that he's being redirected outside of the domain he's in

There is rarely a reason to redirect to other domains. The most common case is making outbound links go through a redirect for tracking purposes - and that I won't miss.

> There is rarely a reason to redirect to other domains. The most common case is making outbound links go through a redirect for tracking purposes - and that I won't miss.

You misunderstand this part, which is forgivable if you're outside Germany. This is about the mandatory "You're leaving X, we do not have control on their data collection or endorse this site's contents. Do you want to continue?" you'll see on German-language website because a court in Hamburg says that they're implicitly liable if they didn't state that.

And this is how it should be done, otherwise you read the article a few years latter and see a strange mess with empty holes.

If you want to make sure that you're not getting the balancing test wrong, you can always go for the legal basis of last resort: consent. Just ask the user whether you can load content from Instagram and only do it if they agree. In fact, since in parallel to the question of your legal basis under GDPR, you also have to comply with the cookie provision from the e-Privacy Directive, where there is no "legitimate interest" exception to the requirement to ask for consent, you will have to ask for consent anyway (as Instagram embeds place cookies).

I don't think that's true. The cookie provision is misunderstood when you think you have to ask for consent for functional cookies. Follows from the GDPR, and there is no specific cookie law actually implemented in european countries. See also https://gdpr.eu/cookies/. Ah, but maybe I misunderstood and you are only talking about the cookie set by the embed?

These are the guidelines on consent exemption by the Article 29 Working Party (the European Data Protection Board's predecessor) that explain it: https://ec.europa.eu/justice/article-29/documentation/opinio...

However:

> This is not the case for cookies placed by Instagram embeds.

Yeah, I can see how this is complicated and how it fits the topic. It's not a third party cookie for the embed, but for the website it might be, and is it even a functional cookie? I doubt it. I'm not sure how those would be judged and what is a reasonable way to work with embeds. It's only certain that there is not a solution as easy as it was in this case, where self-hosting the fonts was possible.

Other than court judgments, the Article 29 Working Party opinion is the most authoritative opinion you will get on the interpretation of the e-Privacy Directive, which is the "real legislation" that you need to look at.

edit: Nobody claims that the e-Privacy Regulation is in effect, by the way -- of course it isn't, it hasn't even been passed. The cookie consent clause of the e-Privacy Directive is however in effect, and has been since 2009.

Edit: No, I'm not. The GDPR page I linked states the situation that follows both from the GDPR and the e-Privacy Directive. It also fits to what is written in the directive itself.

Everything sqrt2 says in the comments is entirely correct, as far as I can tell.

Ridiculous to govern non-privacy relevant tech usage like this. I still think that's illegal where I live. Regardless, let's hope the e-Privacy Regulation or future court decisions solve this.

The part that is tricky, is where we offload additional burden of knowledge and responsibility to the website providers.

When it is on the user to figure out whether they are allowed to use a product – and that means in fact any product – that one of the biggest companies in the world is allowed to offer in my country legally, we are in trouble.

Law is complex. Tech is complicated. Most people are not law or tech experts. Getting sound advice on both is expensive, and the trend to increasingly need more of both is worrisome.

This seems neither fair nor reasonable to me. Or particularly democratic.

I'm still waiting for the ability to have mail received from someone or a company without giving such parties my name and physical address. This could very easily be implemented in many ways, but somehow does not exist.

There is no reason for a mail order company to know my full name and physical address to deliver anything to do, and I feel this sis far more compromising than an i.p. address.

I find giving ulterior parties my name, and the physical location on the planet I live far more scary than being tracked by cookies without such cookies being able to be tied to such things.

Not quite? Wouldn't the users browser have sent its own IP address to Google? That's different that "forwarding" it, and it may not even be enough for Google to connect the user to that site.

Now from a practical standpoint, I'd like to see a privacy consent header which informs the web site of the privacy options the user has selected. Absence of that header or absence of specific selections will result in annoying popups like we have now.

If URL "hacking" is illegal, then we have decided as a society that persuading a piece of software to do something does not equate to informed consent on the part of the person operating it (and by extension that we're meant to make some sort of guess as to what they do intend).

Users on the other hand are just people. Being a user on a service does not grant you power over other users (not out-of-the-box anyway). Sure you can scan for vulns and/or follow a public link to a top-secret document: in my view that's nothing wrong. Now reverse the situation: why should a remote server administrator dictate the computing performed on your machine?! Is it ethical for some website operators to start scanning your local network?

A service operator knows about threats, hopefully has counter-measures in place, and can always ban you (or specific requests) if it comes to that. A user is mostly helpless, especially when it comes to computations performed by a script you unconsciously downloaded and executed from a server. How many users are aware of what RCE even means and that a web browser with JS enabled is essentially RCE-as-a-service?

A document that is expected to be executed by the receiving system. Might as well log in to your companies production server as root and send the completely meaningless string of letters "rm -rf / \n", not your fault if the receiving system actually executes it.

You’re not wrong that one could logically evolve your interpretation from circumstances, but GDPR’s authors chose not to accept your interpretation as sufficient, and went further than that.

The European Court of Justice did not buy this argument. By coding the website in a particular way, the website operator was responsible for causing the user's browser to act in a particular way, so it was the “data controller” for the collection an transmission of personal data by the Facebook Like button, though Facebook is of course jointly responsible for what their code does.

The underlying argument is that someone is a data controller and thus responsible for GDPR compliance when they determine the “purposes and means” of processing, alone or jointly with others. Embedding the code for the button was an exercise of this power to determine purposes and means. In contrast, the website operator is not a data controller for whatever Facebook does with the collected data on its servers, because it cannot control what FB does.

The given case from Munich is a very straightforward extension from the Fashion ID judgement, though the website operator didn't even claim that they weren't responsible. Instead, they argued that they had a “legitimate interest”in loading fonts from Google servers, which the court rejected. While I consider it probable that Google does not use data from Fonts servers for tracking, the judgement correctly points out that Google is well-known for tracking – but this doesn't matter anyway, since already the disclosure of personal data without a legal basis is a problem.

I can go "bash < somefile" and I can go "csh < somefile" and I can go "cat < somefile". It's my choice to use bash, csh, or cat. somefile will have data in it, that data will be interpreted by MY choice of program to read the data. If I don't want the contents of somefile interpreted as commands I shouldn't be passing it to something that runs commands based on its content. replace somefile with `curl someURL` and nothing changes. If I don't want my computer to connecte to other computers based on what content comes back from `curl someURL` that's my responsibility.

Maybe a better example. It type `npm -i somepackage`. npm then looks in somepackage and sees dependencies and downloads them. By the same logic as the judgement npm or `somepackage` is responsible for leaking PPI based on the dependencies listed. Not the user for running npm in the first place.

The same with `apt update` and `apt upgrade` etc...

The ruling would apply in tons of places that seem like they'd make it hard for things to keep working.

If you don't have a contract stating that the other part will honor GDPR then we will assume that the other part will misuse all data sent to them, so you aren't allowed to send any data at all.

Or proxying. Or proxying with caching, which is kind of part way between self-hosting and proxying. :)

Why do you think that? I would never agree that a link should carry any responsibility to the site owner, even if it linked to porn, warez or really illegal stuff.

But there is. Where does it stop being reasonable? When you have to host your own video delivery infrastructure?

Do you still think it’s reasonable that it should be a legal requirement that to embed a video on your web page you must develop your own video delivery infrastructure?

I think the important part is that this is an issue, only because companies like have had a surprising hard time not misusing every single bit of information sent their way. The result is that companies have forced governments to step in and now they are overregulating.

If you do not request preload behavior, then you’re just linking another site on the web, and users are considered to understand that links go to other sites, and that’s acceptable. A theoretical GDPR complaint would find that the user agent was responsible for the behavior, not you as site operator.

(I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice.)

I already agreed in a comment above that these questions wrongly answered by a pure privacy maximizing position carry a huge danger for the german web.

maybe just use software to fix the problem instead of spreading FUD. HuGe DaNgEr